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The ROI (Return On Investment) Pyramid (Podcast): What Is It & Why Does It Matter

What Is the ROI Pyramid

We have many ways to learn about the ROI pyramid, through the podcast, our transcription of the podcast, and lastly our blog.

Podcast Transcription

Caleb S 

Hi there listeners. This is Caleb here. 

I've also got Denise joining me today, and if you guys have listened to any of our previous audiobooks — which we really hope that you have— you would recognize our voices. 

Now, I'm sure you've heard our voices if you have listened, but who really are we? We haven't actually gotten into that, so I kind of want to find out. Denise, now that I've got you here, who are you? 

Denise B 

Thanks, Caleb. 

I am the Managing Director of Web ROI, our marketing agency. And Caleb? 

Caleb S 

I'm the Senior Account Manager for the same marketing agency, of course. We both are here representing Web ROI today. And, Denise, what are we going to do? What are we doing here? 

Denise B 

So, new format for us. We're excited about it, and we thought we'd start off with something very basic.  It's a foundation in our agency and our business. It's something we talk to potential clients about, all of our existing clients, and is something we live by, and that is our return on investment pyramid. 

Caleb S 

That's right.  

So, a return on investment pyramid. It sounds like there's a lot going on in there, and you know what, there actually is. So, what we want to do today is break it down. We want to help all of you listeners actually understand what we're talking about and why we do this. 

As Denise mentioned, this is so important. It's incredibly important to us, to our potential clients, to our current clients, and we do live and breathe it every day. 

So, what I kind of want you, listeners, to think about right now is if you imagine a pyramid. So, a triangle with its point at the top and its widest portion at the bottom. That is how we're setting up this return on investment pyramid here. 

If you think about something like, for example, Maslow's hierarchy of needs— old psychological thing—where at the bottom is... I don't know. At the bottom... 

Denise B 

I was gonna say, do you know it? Are you going to get into that? 

Caleb S 

I do know it— kind of. I know it enough to kind of make a parallel here, but essentially at the bottom is the most important stuff. At the top is the least important stuff. So, if you're thinking, "Okay, well, what do I need right now?" you always need those foundational things. The bottom first. And that's kind of the way that we think about this pyramid here. 

It's almost like a Web ROI pyramid of digital marketing needs. A hierarchy of digital marketing needs, and that's kind of the way that we've set it up. 

So, if you can kind of imagine that structure of a triangle or pyramid where the base is the most important, we always consider the base to be something like a conversion rate optimized website. 

So, what does that actually mean? What is a conversion rate optimized website, and why do we care so much about it? 

Denise B 

Great question. 

So, like Caleb mentioned, the base of the pyramid, what is needed for all of your marketing efforts to be successful, is a successful website. 

There is no point in spending money on marketing and bringing all of these people to your website if it doesn't do what you need it to do, and that is to turn those visitors into leads or into potential customers. 

So how do you do that? What do you look for? This is where we use a 32-point checklist for every website we build to make sure it has all the elements in place that will make that website convert.  

We look at things like reading patterns, you know, you read left to right, top to bottom, different areas of the page where eyes linger to make sure we have important information there. 

We want to make sure it has common elements so that you meet users' expectations. Whether you subconsciously know it or not, there are places on a web page where you would expect to find things like a phone number. It should be in the top right corner. That's just natural for users to go there and expect to find some sort of contact information.  

So, if somebody lands on your page and they have no idea how to contact you, they can't easily find a phone number, they can't easily fill out a form, they're likely just going to leave. And in that case, you've wasted all of your marketing dollars, which are higher up the pyramid, by having that potential customer just leave. 

And so, that's where we start: a conversion rate optimized website. 

Caleb S 

I think you got most of it there. I think my question for you is, you know, is a website really necessary today? Could someone get away without a website? 

Denise B 

I'm going to say yes. I can think of odd circumstances where maybe not so much. But we live in the world of Google, and people search and they look for credibility. They want to know who they're doing business with, and the website is the easiest way to do that. So, a credible, good, professional-looking website, I would say in 99.9% of cases, is mandatory. 

Caleb S 

Right. 

And, I think I agree with that. You know, I obviously work in a digital marketing agency, so I have certain expectations, but when I'm considering working with a new business or looking for something, I do look for a website first. 

Like you said, first thing is always a Google search, and we all do that. We just want to find out, is the company reputable? Like, are they gonna have what I'm looking for? You use Google first. We kind of just live there, really.  

Denise B 

Google is our world. 

Caleb S 

Yeah, so speaking of Google, the next step up on the pyramid, so the second level of the pyramid, is where things are a little bit different than further up the pyramid. I guess that's a way to say it because here, with the second level, which is going to be our pay-per-click advertising and our search engine optimization, those two are actually elements that are in place when somebody is essentially ready to work with you. 

So, you want to make sure that these are there because someone is prepared to actually make that decision— make that step and engage directly with you. 

Denise B 

I think we actually even just said it too when somebody does a Google search. We just talked about the importance of Google.  

So, when somebody is searching for your services, how can you show up? 

Caleb S 

Right, yeah. They're directly looking for either you or what you do at this point. 

So, there's two elements here. This kind of level or layer of the pyramid is split into two, and we split it up between pay-per-click advertising and search engine optimization. 

So, on the pay-per-click advertising side, that is your ads, your paid ads. These are ads that show up on Google.  

So, let's say for example you are looking for something on Google, and let's pretend we are looking for a brand new sweater. If you search for that sweater, you will see ads for, you know, certain types of sweaters or certain brands that carry sweaters at the top, and it's actually marked by the word "AD" beside it on a Google search. 

That's a Google ad. You, as a business, would pay for it when somebody clicks on that ad, only, not when it's displayed. And again, just another way of actually getting more people to see your brand and to engage with your brand. 

On the flip side, there's another kind of aspect of this on the Google side called search engine optimization. Essentially, what that means is: how do we optimize our website or web pages to ensure that Google is seeing them and pushing them to the top of those search engine result pages? Because what we know is, if something is higher up on the search engine result page, so when you type something in on Google, the higher up it is on that page, the more likely it is to be clicked. So, the more likely someone is going to engage with that website or that webpage.  

However, that doesn't just happen overnight, and you can't just give Google 200 bucks and say, hey, throw me at the top of the page. There's actually a lot of work— 

Denise B 

Not anymore anyways. 

Caleb S 

Exactly, there's a lot of work that goes into that. 

Maybe, Denise, you can speak to that a little bit because it's not just an overnight thing, and it's definitely not a flip of a switch. 

Denise B 

Yeah, SEO... search engine optimization— it is not a one-time thing. You cannot just set it and forget it. 

It is an ongoing process, so there are elements you can do when you're first setting up your website, of course, to help it be found and to have the right technical and organic factors. But then there's ongoing things, and all websites get old. Google has new updates and requirements, and so doing that ongoing optimization will really help your website continuously be found higher up in Google search page results. 

And then it's confusing. What are ads versus organic? What is the difference? This human analogy that we often use is farming versus hunting. And with paid ads, so PPC or Google ads, being the hunting analogy. 

So, if you needed to feed your family or feed your village today, tonight, what would you do? You could go out and hunt and get results right away. They're immediate. That is like a paid ad. You can flick it on with a switch. 

You can turn your ads on, and right away, your website is going to show up. Potentially first or at the top of the page. 

SEO, organic, is more like farming. It's nurturing, so you need to plant your seeds. You need to care for your crop. You need to water it.  You will get a large return. You can feed your entire village over time and continue to see that return, but it does take time and effort and ongoing strategy. 

Caleb S 

Okay, and that makes sense.  

I think to your point earlier, I get that question all the time. Do I need both? Do I need SEO and PPC? And, do businesses really need both? 

Denise B 

I think so. 

We always recommend both because, if you're a newer business and you don't have a lot of domain authority, or if you're a newer website, so you're not as credible with Google yet, ads are the quickest way to get your website shown. 

That doesn't mean though if you have a really strong organic strategy that you still shouldn't be paying for ads. A competitor could be bidding on your name, and as good as your organic results may be, they can still show up ahead of you because it's a paid ad. So, I really think you need to look at the two as complementary to each other. Maybe your ads can go in different ebbs and flows depending on your season or your sales cycle, but definitely having a strategy for both is really important. 

Caleb S 

Okay, and then I guess my follow-up question to that is: if I'm spending all this money on, you know, making sure that my website is set up properly for SEO, and then I start investing money into advertising dollars, do I just forget about my SEO? Like, can I just stop it? Is it good to go, or what do we do with SEO from there?  

Denise B 

From an ongoing strategy, we want to keep both. 

And, that's something you can maybe speak a lot to— what we do with content for our clients. That's having fresh content on your website, so it's showing Google that your website is still up to date. It's relevant, it's current. You're fine, you're answering questions, or you're putting content out there that people are looking for. 

And that's just the whole part. It's not about just stuffing a page full of keywords. It's all about the user, and Google has changed its strategy toward that. It wants to just show websites or show results that will answer people's enquiries. That's what Google's trying to do.  

So, if you build your website and you write your content with that in mind, you'll naturally or organically start to show up for those results.  

Caleb S 

Yeah, and like you said there, we always focus on an ongoing SEO strategy. 

So, you know, other ways that we do it, like you mentioned, is we focus on content SEO, blogging and for a lot of people, at least that I know, who are not familiar with the digital world, blogging just seems like this really archaic, like early Internet thing. 

People would, you know, create a blog and just talk about their life there, but that's not exactly what we're talking about. We refer to blogging here because when we're talking about blogging, we're talking about using keywords, specific terms, using keyword research to determine what terms are actually being searched frequently on Google to determine what kinds of blogs we're writing. 

Denise B 

When considering these types of things, the way we work up the pyramid is if you have an unlimited budget, money is not an issue for you, I'm going to recommend you do everything that we talk about today. 

However, if your budget is more restricted or you're looking to only focus on some of these things, this is where you want to start: on the bottom of the pyramid. So those two search elements with paid ads and SEO is where you're going to get your most return. It makes sense that you start your initial budget there. This is how you're going to get found by those who need you now. 

As we move up the pyramid— so we've done the first two layers, a conversion rate optimized website, then the search level— that third level as we move up, is what we call lead nurturing through email marketing. 

Now, these are people who may not be searching because they need you now, but they may need you in the future. So, they visited your website, maybe they've downloaded some of your content like you had a guide or a checklist or something they were interested in. In exchange, they gave you their email. They weren't ready to contact you for a quote or to get your service right away, but they know who you are. 

With email marketing, now you can continuously send them other useful information about your business and help stay top of mind. We know email marketing. How many emails do you get in your inbox now? Like, how many of them do you actually open? I know people's inboxes are flooded with these kinds of promotional or business emails.  

Caleb S 

Yeah. 

Denise B 

Yeah, and that's why we see our open rates going down.  

Frankly, over the years, they are dropping, and that's okay because, even though they're not opening the email, if they see it in your inbox, if they see your company, they see your branding, that's still a reference for them. So consciously, you're showing up in their head. You're showing up in their mind. They're thinking of you even when they're pressing "delete". They're thinking of you. And that's really just the goal, that you continuously have that impression on them.  

There's fantastic software out there. We can use automation or different streams to create drip campaigns, so it's not like you're manually having to send it out to all of these lists. You can set up different flows and have them be sent out through different periods of time. 

 Caleb S 

Yeah, I mean, exactly like you said. 

I get tons of email newsletters from, you know, every business that I've engaged with. And everyone always wants your email for a discount or something else, and nothing wrong with that, do it. But exactly to your point— I open maybe 5% of all the email newsletters that I get. 

But I see the brand name, or I see the logo. I see something on that email every time that I have to dismiss the notification or just scrolling through my email.  

So, you mentioned branding and staying top of mind, you know? We'll get into this more as we move up the pyramid, but why is branding so important? Why is there this shift in focus towards branding, especially just remaining top of mind as opposed to just vying for people to open that email? What is branding? 

 Denise B 

So, you land on somebody's website, and you like what they have, or you like what they're saying or what they're offering, and then you don't need it right now and you delete it, or you just don't do anything with it. You move on. You move on to your next page. Or you move on, keep scrolling through your Instagram, whatever.  

What's the chance that you're going to remember who that company is a month from now, two months from now? You're like, "Oh, there was that cool company that did this". And you don't know, you don't remember. And if you did a Google search, maybe you'll find a similar company or a competitor and say, "Okay, this is good enough to have".  

But if you have something of value, or if you can get their email, and usually it's an exchange, you're not just going to give your emails out to anybody, right? You're exchanging your information, your email, for something of value, like a good piece of content or even a coupon. Oh my gosh, how many coupons have you signed up for? 

But here's the thing: I get all those emails too— how many do you actually unsubscribe to? I don't unsubscribe from anything. 

Caleb S 

It's more work to unsubscribe than to just ignore. 

Denise B 

I know, so now I'm just continuously getting these brands' emails into my inbox, which is into my subconscious as I'm deleting them. You're remembering them, and then six months from now, when I think, "Oh, I do need that fresh patch, green grass thing for my dog's balcony", their emails are still coming in and I'll be ready to buy. 

So, we're going to talk a lot more about branding as we move up. Branding is targeting people who may buy from you one day, which is why the ROI tends to be lower. Because, again, if people are searching— if you have a searchable product or service, this is really important. Actually, this pyramid really only applies if your product is searchable, so meaning that there's a demand point that people know what it is and that there's search volume for it. You're going to get higher ROI by going after people looking for your products now as opposed to who may buy from you one day. 

Caleb S 

Right. 

Denise B 

So that's moving up. That's our email marketing. It's the start of our branding. It started that lead nurturing, and it's still considered a lead because they've already given you your email. They've entered your system, so this is why it's in the middle of the pyramid. 

We're not quite just at the top of branding, and we're not at people looking for you, so they've given some sort of content. You're going to continue to nurture that lead until they're ready to go and buy from you, which is similar to our next level of the pyramid, in a sense, because it isn't just a cold push advertising, and that is through retargeting which is also remarketing. They can be interchanged. 

Caleb S 

So, you know, retargeting, remarketing— again, like we said, that the word is interchangeable. 

It's just another form of advertising, and essentially the goal of this type of advertising is to essentially follow someone around and just continually display the branding or that product or whatever it may be to that individual. 

It's just continually staying like, we said before, top of mind. Remaining at the top of that individual's mind, making sure that they are just consistently aware of them.  

Denise, you always have like a— I think it's hilarious, I don't think anyone else does— you have this hilarious analogy that you always make when it comes to retargeting, and I'll get you to speak to that 'cause I think it makes it makes sense. 

 Denise B 

Yeah, so technical side. We're going to geek out a bit. 

What happens when somebody visits your website and you have a retargeting or remarketing campaign in place? What they do is drop what's called cookies onto your browser. These cookies then allow an advertiser to stalk you. It's like they're following you around the internet, and they're stalking you with display ads on other websites or on other platforms. 

So, I'm looking for a new pair of shoes. I found a pair of shoes I like from a certain website. I'm looking at them, not quite ready to buy them, but they look really nice. Cool. Now I'm going to go about my day and go to different websites. I'm going to check the weather. I'm going to do different things. This pair of shoes will follow me around, and they're taunting me. They're holding me there, they're saying, "Remember these, remember these, remember these!" and they follow you around for up to 30 days or so, depending on what parameters you set around your campaign, until you make that purchase. 

It's creepy but extremely effective because it's in your face. You can get those emails too that say, "Did you leave these in your cart?", "Did you want a coupon for the others"? These are the types of things you do when you follow somebody around after they're looking for a product or once you know that they're interested in something by sending ads and shoving it back in their face. 

The conversion rate skyrockets with these types of campaigns. 

Caleb S 

And that's it, right? 

As the consumer here, in this case, it sounds super creepy, like, I don't want, you know, Acme Company following me around everywhere that I go. You know? They're showing up on other websites that I'm visiting and still seeing their ads, and you know, they're all over the place. 

Denise B 

You can't escape 'em.  

Caleb S 

Yeah, exactly. 

But, as a business owner, when you flip it, it makes sense, right? You want to keep hitting these people who you know, hey, these are individuals who aren't looking for something that I have. Maybe they're not quite ready to commit yet. Well, this is exactly what you want to do. Stay in front of them. Make sure they're seeing you and you alone. You know they don't really have a chance to look at competitors, and the thing is, exactly like you said, their conversion rates skyrocketed with this. Why? Because we're suckers. We're all suckers.  

Denise B 

And even say that consumers don't want that, and they don't want to be stalked around, but honestly, when you start— and we're going to talk a little bit more about display ads— when they start showing you other products based on what you search, it can be extremely convenient. 

So, the one thing I was looking at wasn't quite what I wanted, but now, I'm seeing ads that are very tailored to me about other different things, and I'm getting introduced to products I may never have found on my own. 

I mean, as a consumer, it can also work in your favour, It's very convenient as well. 

Caleb S 

Absolutely, and that's it. 

And, as a business particularly— this works differently for different types of businesses, like we're not going to assume here that every business can be painted with the same brush— but, if you do have a tangible product or service, that is something that somebody might be searching for, it works to the point where it's almost like a confirmation bias because the consumer is seeing it so frequently and they're being reminded of it so frequently. It's almost like, "Yeah, I was thinking about this yesterday. I've been thinking about this all week. Okay, well, it's time for me to buy now". 

My wife and I were talking about a steam mop. Didn't know steam mops were a thing. We found a steam mop that we genuinely actually really liked last night. And, I could not remember the brand or the model of the steam mop. But I was on Tik Tok, I think— I was on websites, and I see ads on the fringes of the site showing me different steam mops to the point that we found one. We were like, "Alright, we should probably buy this one", and it wasn't even the same one that I had originally found. But because it was following me around, because I kept being exposed to this ad, in the back of my mind I was like, "Alright, I'm supposed to have this steam mop".  

Denise B 

How does a steam mop work? 

Caleb S 

So, I guess instead of dipping your mop into water, there's a water reservoir inside of it and it heats the water and pushes steam out so it's like antibacterial and antimicrobial 'cause it kills things with heat. 

It's good for pets, and it has a piece of it that can pop off so you can steam your microwave and clean it down. It's really cool. 

Denise B 

You're gonna have some clean floors. 

 Caleb S 

I learned all of this from these ads. This is how well retargeting works.  

Denise B 

There you go. Did you buy one? 

Caleb S 

We did, yeah. 

Denise B 

See? Speaks for itself.  

Caleb S 

Exactly. 

So, at the end of the day, it may seem like a lot of work or a lot of extra steps, or even a little bit unnecessary, but as Denise mentioned in the beginning, if you have the budget for it, it will work. And it's been proven time and time again that it will work just by being in front of people's faces.  

Denise B 

There you go. 

Let's move to the top two levels of the pyramid now.  

So, we had the foundation, websites that focused on search, lead nurturing, so people who either have given you your email or visited your websites, so you can continuously drip on them. The top two elements of the pyramid are strictly branding. These are what we call push marketing, I suppose, because you are pushing it out to them. 

Starting with social media: so, social media posts and social media ads. Not saying they're not effective, it's just— your target or who your audience is going to, you don't have as much information to start. Social media posts include just posting organically on your page, being shown to your followers or people whose friends like something on your page. I mean, depending on the platform we're talking about, we won't get into too many details.  

And then, of course, paying for social media advertising. So, paying to have your ads shown on people's social media platforms. Again, they're really effective. How many Instagram ads do you see? Or different things that are tailored towards you? 

You can do audience targeting, and you can get quite granular on the types of people you target. The difference is, though, that these people are not originally searching for your services, so you are just taking a chance by pushing it out to the people you think will want it one day. 

Caleb S 

Yeah, I love that. I love the example of the push versus pull because, in this case, what we're pushing is exactly like you said, they're not actively going out and looking for whatever you're selling, they're just going to kind of happen upon it. 

Whereas lower down the pyramid, where things are a little bit more on the pull side, you're almost drawing people in because they're already engaging by searching something related to you, and you're just drawing them in by having a good website or a beautiful advertisement or something like that to actually draw them in.  

So, this is where you're going beyond that and going after them instead of letting them come to you. And, exactly like you said, there are the organic posts, so those are the typical ones. You're not paying to put the post up by any means. You create a beautiful-looking image, you create a caption with hashtags or whatever it may be for whichever social network you're using, and you just hope that people happen upon it. And, we do see significantly lower engagement rates and reach with these organic types, but as the business continues to grow, you know, you expect that to grow with it. 

On the flip side, there are the paid ads, and so there's different ways of doing it. You can actually set up an ad campaign where you have multiple ads that're just shown repeatedly. Or, if you have one post that was an organic post that you really like, you can sponsor that post so you can, you know, say, "Hey, here's 10 bucks. Let's get it shown to more people", and it just increases the reach of that post that way. 

There is, I suppose, the possibility that someone may find something— I might be scrolling through Instagram, I see a business, I click on their profile, I open up their profile, end up on their website, end up looking at their products, end up purchasing something. I guess that is possible, but maybe not as frequently as a business would hope that it is. 

 Denise B 

That's right, and that's why we usually say the ROI can be lower. So, if you're working with a more limited budget, again, focus on those people who are looking for your services. 

But the nice thing about social media ads is the target level that you can get. You can look into people's life cycle or their life events. So, say you were something in the wedding industry. You can target people who are in the engagement phase of their life and how Facebook knows these things whether you actually change your status or not. Or, just other things that you've been searching will indicate that you have a wedding coming up. You may be showing your ads of things that people may not even know they wanted, so they wouldn't ever be searching for it. Welcome to the wedding industry— all of a sudden, you're buying all kinds of stuff you've never thought you even wanted or needed. 

So, depending on your industry, depending on your audience, these can be really, really effective as well. We're not trying to hate on social over here; it's just, again, if we are going to work with more restrictive budgets, we always say go after those people who are searching for you first. 

 Caleb S 

Yeah, absolutely. 

And then again, like to your point, there's different tactics within those ads or within social media itself, like there's so many different ways of going about it. 

If you're on Tik Tok, or if anyone's on Tik Tok, there's all those challenges, but they're ads essentially at the end of the day where they're showing off this brand new product that you can find on Amazon. And it's like the coolest thing ever. It's like lights for your car or lights for your bathroom or something. And you're like, "I didn't even know I needed this, but it looks so cool. I just kind of want it". 

Denise B 

Right? And those are products that don't probably have a ton of search volume because no one even knows they existed. 

So, depending on what your product is— and this is something we've come across too, we have clients that have offerings or have products or services that aren't commonly searched 'cause people don't even really know about them— then social is a great way to get your product out there. 

Caleb S 

Yeah, absolutely, especially if it goes viral. You're set. 

Denise B 

And that's why these Tik Tok stars are making millions. And, here we are. Wrong career, I suppose. 

Caleb S 

I don't know if we have the personalities for that. 

Denise B 

Not a Tik Tok Star? 

Caleb S 

So yeah, so that's the social media. 

The organic and the ad side is actually the second to last level in the pyramid before we move up to the very final and the peak of the pyramid. Again, kind of working up from what's most foundational to some of the things that you can do if you have the budget for it as opposed to it having the greatest return on investment. 

And that last one is display ads. So, what are display ads, and why do they end up here at the very top of the pyramid? 

Denise B 

People may argue we've already talked about display ads, and in a way, we have. 

So, a display ad is a visual graphic of your advertisement. So, is retargeting a display ad? Absolutely. It's following them around. Are social media ads a display ad? Absolutely, there's a graphic with those.  

Display ads work a little bit differently though because outside of social, you can have your display ad showing on— we'll say we're working within Google and other websites within the Google network. So, you run your campaign through Google ads, and then it shows your display ads on websites within their network, and Google has thousands of websites in their network that will be relevant to your audience. 

So, this is why— maybe you're on CNN or the weather channel, and you see those advertisements down the side. Then you're targeting people. They may not have visited your website, so that's what makes them different than retargeting because you're showing ads to people who maybe have no idea who you are. They were never on your website before. It's all pure branding. You're showing it to people you think will want to buy from you one day. 

Caleb S 

Right, so would you say those people are, then from our pyramid, the least likely to return and engage or purchase from you or work with you? 

Denise B 

Again, I think it's going to be really campaign-specific and product-specific. You can get quite targeted with your audiences as well, but display ads are really meant for that branding and that awareness piece. So, it's not necessarily meant for conversions. 

Caleb S 

Okay. 

 Denise B 

I wouldn't say it's a conversion strategy. It's not like you're trying to get all these new customers from it. But all of a sudden, you're going to get a lot of people who know who you are because you're going to be showing ads, you're going to be showing your brand. So, it's a really, really great way to get your brand known. 

But, if you are looking more for leads, if you're looking for more customers, more convergence, then I would stick to more of the search-focused stuff. 

Caleb S 

Yeah, okay, and that makes sense. 

So yeah, its purpose is almost more on the branding side, so it still has a lot of value. 

Denise B 

Absolutely, and that's where it's really important. You need to evaluate what your business is, what you're trying to achieve. What are you trying to sell? Where are the people you want to sell to? Looking at all these different strategies. 

Caleb S 

Right. 

Denise B 

Now I know we're talking about a visual, Caleb, but I've seen this visual daily.  We probably have it up at our screens right now. It's like— I think it's my screensaver. But if you're, rightfully so, confused on how we describe this or can't picture it as well as we're trying to explain, where can they find this pyramid? 

Caleb S 

So, I'm actually going to have the link to the blog that we've written all about this pyramid, so actually a little bit more in-depth than what you and I have gone into today, right in the description of this podcast. So, if you guys navigate that way, you can jump over there. If you click on it, it will take you right to our website, to the blog that actually describes this, and you'll see the visual that we have. It's a really pretty multi-coloured pyramid. You can actually differentiate the different levels. 

Denise B 

Shout out to our designer, Marek.

Caleb S 

Absolutely. 

And yeah, it really helps to visualize this a lot better, and it makes a lot of sense when you do actually get to see it. So, I do encourage you listening, please do click on that link. Check it out, visit the website and see exactly how we have this laid out. 

Then you can also, you know, look around the website. You can see the services that we offer, and you can also learn more about our team. You can see more information about Denise and myself, and the rest of our team as a whole right there on our website. 

Denise B 

Do not worry. We are currently not running any sort of retargeting campaign, so we will not follow you around for 30 days after you visit our website. 

Caleb S 

Yes, correct. 

Denise B 

So, we hope you enjoy this new type of format. We're not entirely sure how 2022 and our podcasts are going to look but stay tuned. We're hoping to do more like this, where we'll dive into each of those elements of the pyramid and talk a little bit more specifically about all of these services or the different aspects of them. 

So, we hope you enjoy more of these as they come. 

Caleb S 

Thank you guys, for listening. 

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